Tulpa.info - metaphysics

There is aswell natural evil, but its different

You and most of the server already know my take on "willful decisions" and "unnecessary occurences" ;P

7:03 AM

Circumstance is sometimes pleasure, sometimes pain. That's one of life's dualities

7:03 AM

Pain doesn't create our suffering, and pleasure doesn't fix it

7:04 AM

Pleasure and pain are circumstantial. Suffering is an attitude of discomfort towards circumstance

Maybe you have a different definition of pleasure. Just to be sure you dont mean dopamine?

Pleasure and pain can be physical and/or emotional

7:26 AM

Pleasure and pain are defined by our individual preferences and aversions

7:26 AM

We will always experience circumstance as being either pleasant, painful, or both

7:29 AM

Unhappiness is rooted in two beliefs, one of them being that pleasure will fulfill me, complete me; that pain is an attack on me, takes away from my completeness as a person

7:30 AM

The other belief is that anything could ever have unfolded differently - I could have caused person A less pain, therefore I'm unworthy; person B could have caused me less pain, therefore I have to hate them

7:32 AM

When these beliefs are seen through as being completely erroneous, unhappiness (guilt, blame, pride, worry, expectation) dissolves, and life is experienced with peace of mind whether circumstance is pleasant or painful. (edited)

Pleasure and pain are defined by our individual preferences and aversions

@Maharani If you mean to say that some people are more sensitive to certain things then yes I agree; but dont you think pleasure and pain are largely universal as well?

8:05 AM

Unhappiness is rooted in two beliefs, one of them being that pleasure will fulfill me, complete me; that pain is an attack on me, takes away from my completeness as a person

@Maharani This continues to be the part i disagree most with

8:07 AM

You're right, and fairly perceptive actually, about us having subconcious beliefs, but pain and pleasure are often very surface level. You dont need to believe that pain means anything for it to suck.

You dont need to believe that pain means anything for it to suck.

@Deleted User Yeah, that's why it's called pain. The definition of pain is "circumstance that sucks (according to my preference)"

not necessarily

2:29 PM

only the suffering is optional

2:29 PM

sometimes pain can be pleasurable, it depends on mindset

2:30 PM

and I'm not talking about bdsm or anything like that

2:30 PM

I mean like the pain you get when you do something hard to improve yourself

Lily brings this up too sometimes. Circumstance can be physically painful but emotionally pleasant

yeah

(For example)

like weight lifting

Yeah, that's why it's called pain. The definition of pain is "circumstance that sucks (according to my preference)"

The point being made is that even though pain sucks, it was never the cause of our unhappiness, and even intense pain is much more bearable when there is no guilt, blame, worry, expectation

2:37 PM

It's connected to the recognition that circumstance can never touch who we are as a person (edited)

2:38 PM

Because what we are at our core is consciousness, having an experience

2:39 PM

Whether the experience is pleasant or painful, we are conscious of it, and that turns out to be what really fulfills us rather than circumstance

2:45 PM

This can sound ridiculous if there hasnt been evidence for this in our own experience

2:45 PM

For me its very clearly the most accurate description, even though there is still a lot of unhappiness arising in me (edited)

2:47 PM

I can tell painful circumstance is never what makes my life feel unbearable, and its not pleasant circumstance that makes me content

2:49 PM

And again, circumstantial pleasure and pain include emotional circumstance such as joy, bliss, sadness, anger. Completely unconnected to (un)happiness, which I can verify from my own experience

2:50 PM

Joy can be accompanied by guilt and worry, and the moment feels ruined

2:51 PM

When sadness is experienced without guilt, we find no problem with the sadness

2:52 PM

Its always just about whether we're psychologically attached to circumstance, what we think it says about us as a person

2:58 PM

I know this sounds like preachy rambling

2:58 PM

But it's becoming clearer to me every day, experientially, that this is the most accurate description of happiness there is (edited)

3:02 PM

Wow I didn't realize you were still here Luso haha

Pain aside, to go back to the topic of giving evil permission to exist. Say someone slaps a baby. That person would have had to make a choice to do so. In making that choice they would essentially be giving evil permission to exist. What say you?

3:06 PM

my time has been spent in more interesting servers the past few months and until today the discussions had in this channel weren't particularly worth adding to

The person has caused pain to the baby, because the person was designed and conditioned in such a way that the circumstance in which the person hit the baby was the only way life was able to unfold. We can call the action evil, and we can decide to punish the person for it to discourage this kind of behaviour, but blaming the person psychologically is irrational when it's recognized that hitting the baby was the only choice the person could have made in that moment.

3:08 PM

Punishment is possible without hatred

3:10 PM

We can try to reduce circumstantial pain to the best of our abilities, without getting caught up in that pain on a psychological level ("this person should not exist", "they could have chosen not to hit the baby, so they're evil" etc)

I find fault in the notion that every action is predetermined. I will, however concede that evil as a concept is a societal notion that only exists because we as a society have decided that it exists. So in a way I would agree with Catherine on the basis that evil only exists because some collective group on some level says it does. Truly, some may say that it doesn't actually exist and has never existed because your belief system doesn't allow for it to exist, instead explaining it away with some such or another. But does that not all just come full circle to the original claim that for evil to exist we have to agree that it exists (grant it permission etc)

If that's what she meant by "permission" (although I doubt it), then I agree ;P

3:19 PM

I find fault in the notion that every action is predetermined.

Just a matter of time ;P

3:19 PM

Human behaviour is really the laws of physics at play

3:20 PM

How we behave is determined by our genetic design, our experiences in life up to this moment, the position of all the stars in the universe exerting gravitational forces on us in every moment, the movement of the atoms in our brains

3:20 PM

There is an undeniable feeling of free will in every moment

3:20 PM

But this is a world of space, time and causality

3:21 PM

Mother Theresa didn't go around slapping babies, because she wasn't designed and conditioned that way

3:21 PM

Hitler didn't go around building orphanages, because he wasn't designed and conditioned that way

3:21 PM

People don't wake up out of the blue and decide to slap babies

3:22 PM

It's a result of the 14 billion years of circumstance preceding that moment

3:23 PM

If there was no solar system with Earth in it, there would be no one slapping babies

3:23 PM

It's all intricately interconnected, tacky as it may sound

3:23 PM

The "magic" Catherine mentioned

3:23 PM

Everything determines everything else

sometimes pain can be pleasurable, it depends on mindset

@Deleted User Yeah maybe mild pain lol. I'd like to see a single man alive undergo surgery without anesthesia and be having a jolly good old time

3:57 PM

sometimes

Pleasure and pain can co-exist, but the very definition of pain is that it won't be a jolly good old time

3:58 PM

Pain is literally unpleasant

the point is that pain is physical, the suffering or lack of is mental

I would precisify (?) it like this

3:59 PM

Pleasure/pain is physical or emotional, suffering is attitudinal

i see this devolving into semantics, but yeah I agree

Reason I mention it is that people tend to view emotions = (un)happiness

4:02 PM

But they're part of the pleasure and pain of circumstance

4:02 PM

And then suffering is thoughts about circumstance

4:02 PM

It shouldn't have gone like this, it can't develop like that, I'm a failure, I hate you, etc

4:03 PM

I shouldn't be sad or angry, I shouldn't be enjoying this cake while children in Africa starve, etc

4:05 PM

And the reason I precisified it as "attitudinal" rather than "mental", is that we can develop this notion that all thoughts = bad

4:06 PM

But it's really a very specific set of thoughts that makes us feel miserable

4:09 PM

This guy explains it so much better than I ever could https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I7LE7rEIxs&t=60s

Roger Castillo - Being Lived

Roger Castillo - Experiential non-separation

4:09 PM

Just listen to like the first 10 minutes

4:09 PM

Heck 5 minutes

The person has caused pain to the baby, because the person was designed and conditioned in such a way that the circumstance in which the person hit the baby was the only way life was able to unfold. We can call the action evil, and we can decide to punish the person for it to discourage this kind of behaviour, but blaming the person psychologically is irrational when it's recognized that hitting the baby was the only choice the person could have made in that moment.

@Unfastened Belts Is the reason people inflict willful and knowing suffering onto others really because it was their destiny to do so? Or rather, is it just simply because they're weak?

They're not two things

4:30 PM

They do it because they're weak

4:30 PM

They're weak because of their design and conditioning

Fair enough

4:31 PM

So I'm at 15 minutes in the video

4:31 PM

What is it that I'm supposed to be looking for?

Lol idk, if it's not for you it's not for you

4:31 PM

Like I said his bottom message is always the same

4:33 PM

Circumstance will always be pleasant and/or painful, but there can be complete peace of mind when we understand that this is an experience arising within impersonal consciousness

He has a very good voice but I have no idea what the hell point he's trying to make

4:34 PM

rolls eyes

4:34 PM

You'd have to be a god damn monk

4:34 PM

It's a lot harder than it sounds

You absolutely don't have to be a monk

uhhh

With the right pointers about why unhappiness arises, it's a process that usually takes a couple years

i dont understand something

4:36 PM

why are you making excuses for child abuse

Lol

4:36 PM

I can only quote myself

4:36 PM

Human behaviour is really the laws of physics at play How we behave is determined by our genetic design, our experiences in life up to this moment, the position of all the stars in the universe exerting gravitational forces on us in every moment, the movement of the atoms in our brains There is an undeniable feeling of free will in every moment But this is a world of space, time and causality Mother Theresa didn't go around slapping babies, because she wasn't designed and conditioned that way Hitler didn't go around building orphanages, because he wasn't designed and conditioned that way People don't wake up out of the blue and decide to slap babies It's a result of the 14 billion years of circumstance preceding that moment If there was no solar system with Earth in it, there would be no one slapping babies It's all intricately interconnected, tacky as it may sound

4:37 PM

If describing the world as causal is "making excuses", I guess I'm making excuses (edited)